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Friday, March 14, 2014

EP Armory Responds to ATF Raid

We will save you the commentary and you can make up your own opinion. Here is the full statement released by EP Armory in regard to the ATF Raid on their facilities due to the Jigless 80% Polymer Lower Receivers that they manufacture.


Patriots.
We have as you all know had ATF interaction over the EP80 and the sales thereof. We have been in constant contact with our legal team and have made it extrmely apparent that our customers and their privacy are our TOP priority as well as the legality of the sales and manufacturing of our product. Please understand that we are NOT handing any information of any of our customers on an at will basis nor will we. We have had our computers confiscated as I am sure you all have read in the many articles posted all over the internet. We did NOT at any time give them a customer list.
We were served with a search warrant that did not specifically request any of our customers information. We take multiple steps to safeguard your privacy. Therefore we did not give access to any such documents/records/information. Our distributor ARES, located in Oceanside, had a demand in their search warrant for a customer list and was able to apply a TRO (Temporary Restraining Order) in defense. Ares was alerted, and at an advantage due to our circumstances, which was not given to us. Ares and E P Armory are firm believers in our rights as Americans and ensure to uphold them.
Going forward:
Currently all sales and manufacturing of the EP80 have been put on hold until the BATFE can revisit the most recent determination which was on an understanding that the EP80 was manufactured in a way that would not comply with federal GCA (GUN CONTROL ACT) law. We have already previously resent and replied explaining the manufacturing process with no feedback other than a large group of agents entering the premises and confiscating our product and our means to manufacture it, until given further notice.
We feel very confident that litigation from our attorneys will remove the misconception released by the BATFE and will in turn release E P Armory from any charges that could lay ourselves in a criminal court from this.
E P Armory, and all of our employees thank each and every one of our customers and future customers of the support we have received over this whole ordeal.
- Chris Cook
Owner CEO

34 comments:

  1. wow, I am glad that EP didn't willingly hand over their list of sales and customers however, I think we all know that the ATF will get a hold of the list from the seized computers, and then make their own list. Even though my understanding of the law states that any 80% lower is not a firearm and therefore not required to be registered, it seems as though those who make the laws can (and often do) change them as they see fit to their advantage. I don't think that the ATF expected the 80% lower sales to reach the frenzy that it has and it probably scares them a little to think that there could be countless AR15's that have been homemade and are off the radar of the Federal Government. It is a true shame that this has happened to EP and ARES, and even if they do decide that there are no laws being broken, they have made their point clear and accomplished what they wanted.

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    1. Just want to stop any FUD. Your stated the law says 80% is legal without registration is technical incorrect. There is no such law ever written. The process of bring 80% desigh to market typically involves sending a sample to ATF to have it certified as not a firearm. In the frenzy of 80% gold rush, many companis, including EP, decided skip this step in the interest of profit.

      what is happening now is direct result of their greed. Let's hope their manufacturing process stands to the test.

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    2. So the arbitrary line between "80%" and firearm is left up to a government agency to decide? What part of SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED is that ridiculous idea supposed to fall under?

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    3. I take it you have never heard of GCA of 1968? Shall not be infringed is not absolute. If it is, GCA would not have been around for 40 plus years.

      Let's not blur EP's foolishness into the 2A holy war and turn Ares into martyr. EP/Ares decided play with fire and gamble for profit and lost. They are now trying to hide behind the 2A cause to save their own skin. Their action is truly despicable.

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    4. Just because the GCA has been around for a long time does not make it legal, moral or constitutional. Slavery had been around a long time along with the Dred Scott decision and look what a failure that was. The NFA that the GCA is based on has only been ruled on once based on the non militia utility of a sawed off shotgun of a felon who had died before the case even went to the SCOTUS, it was a hack job kind of like the election in Crimea....If that's the kind of government ruling you support maybe you aught to go turn in all your guns now, pull your pants down and bend over for the Batfags.....

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    5. One way to make a customer list more secure is to have the customer list, mixed in with a large number of names that are not customers (for example, a few local phone books).

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    6. 80% is more of a name. What about the 0% lower? Both by the ATF have been listed as a not a firearm. This has been based because 5 parts are not done on an 80% and only the shape of a receiver on a 0%. They are upset because EP Armory has made a user friendly polymer lower and its a 80%. As for if EP Armory sending a firearm to the ATF by there rule not law its not a firearm. So you dont send none firearms to the ATF. When EP Armory made the EP80 was it ever a 100% lower? If at anytime the 80% was a complete lower then and only then did they by law need to send a lower to the ATF.

      And as for the list... if I understand Ares Armor is the only ones the are openly getting a list from. And thats a whole new can they opened as the ATF is now running over 5000 peoples rights.

      Ares Armor was will to work it out in court but the ATF sees them self as a power above the court. Ares Armor bought polymer lowers under the understanding that under the law they were just like the old 80%. If there are not then the ATF has the rightto go to EP Armory and talk to them and have them recall all the ones the sold. If you have been buying an item for 3 years and they had an item that was made of different material but does the same thing can we kick in your businesses doors and tell you we want a list of ALL the customers you been salling to? I dont think so. They would talk with the manufacturer and tell them to recall it now. And then if they did not do it you raid them. And so on. But its not about the EP80s its about the names of who are making lowers at home that they dont know about.

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    7. The GCA of 1968 is unconstitutional as is the NFA of 1934. Just because the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch, and the Judicial Branch say something is Constitutional does not make it so.
      Shall not be infringed means just that and that was how it was interpreted for the first 150 years of this countries existence.
      Until the NFA of 1934 a person could mail order a fully automatic machine-gun with a silencer without a background check, registration or paying a fee to do so. You could even mail order an anti-tank rifle with armor piercing rounds.
      So in 1934 150+ years of properly interpreting the 2nd amendment were tossed out the window just because some mobsters were giving the feds a difficult time (as if the mob followed laws anyway).

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  2. I'm already on a list and have been for quite a long time now. One fine day, this nonsense will stop. But not this day, and not until an agency does something remarkably stupid and completely illegal.

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    1. Wasn't "Fast and Furious" remarkably stupid and completely illegal?

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  3. Remember, this is not about fighting crime or keeping anyone safe. AR's are hardly every used in crimes. What they are used very effectively for though is defending freedom from tyrannical governments.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20RoAfflGCM

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  4. I love your blog. This is a cool site and I wanted to post a little note to tell you, good job! Best wishes!!!

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  5. There are 2 main reasons for someone to complete a 80% lower themselves: 1- to have an AR that they actually built themselves, I mean not just decide what lower+upper+parts kit ect but REALLY build it themselves ,and, 2- to have an AR15 that steers clear of all the bulls*%$ laws/taxes/stamps/lists that the Govt has been mandating. We all know that an AR15 is NO different than any other semi-automatic rifle out there other than the fact that the AR15 looks scary and mean because of its anodized finish and telescoping butt-stock. It does not matter anymore, the fact that the BATF wanted to see who was purchasing these lowers goes against the 2nd reason that people purchased them at all - for PRIVACY reasons. The overwhelmingly majority of firearm owners are law-abiding, tax paying citizens who want to keep their 2nd amendment rights but are seeing them being taken away at an alarming rate..... this is just another example of a private agenda being acted out on the American Public and its sad. What is next ..... having to scan your drivers license every time you purchase ammo or visit your local range ?

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    1. AR is different in that the receiver is a low stress part, with the stresses coming from the barrel to the bolt, directly. That means it can be lighter, easier to carry. Further the tolerances are well controlled so that it can be modified easily.

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  6. EP Armory's computers were confiscated and the customer list is on one of those computer (PERIOD).

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  7. Keeping an eye on how this plays out. If the BATF determines that these polymer lowers with the colored outlines is in fact, prohibited. What's next for the 5000 people that bought this item. Would the BATF mandate serializing them or will they simply send in tactical teams and seize them breaking down one door at a time.

    For what it's worth, imho the Ares billboards and logos be a bit more subtle and a little less stick in the face. I feel bad for the 5000 people on this list.




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  8. Just to be clear there is no "process" in place regarding ATF approval for 80% lowers.

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  9. Just an FYI to clarify for everyone, the EP Poly 80% Lowers are made on RP (Rapid Prototyping) machines, and are designed to be able to make complete (100%) by simply "snapping" certain portions out of the main body with ones hands. The white material that you see in the photo's is actually what is referred to as "support structure material" and is water soluable - so you can basically wash it out, hence the "Jigless" design...


    The main difference between these EP Poly Lowers and an actual Aluminum 80% Lower is that the Aluminum version needs additional machining (by a machininst) to be completed. The EP can be completed by hand in about 10-15 seconds...

    As a Licensed Manufacturer of Machine Guns (and 80% Lowers), I personally would see and define the EP Lowers as unserialized (illegal) firearms - which is probably the reason why the ATF targeted EP Armory, and then Ares by extension. The only way we'll know for sure is if they show up at every 80% Lower manuf, including us...

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    1. Not at all a "rapid prototype" piece as you have described. The ambiguity which the ATF has used in order to seize these is this; did the manufacturer make a firearm which was filled with another material thus making it illegal?
      http://www.thebangswitch.com/building-an-ep-armory-80-ar-lower/

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    2. The EP lowers are in no way what you describe. I have seen one being drilled out and you cannot simply "snap out" the portion of the main body, it is molded inside the lower, and the idea that the plastic is "water soluble" is complete horsesh**. 10 - 15 seconds is absolutely false. It takes probably around 4 hours with a mill, considerably longer with hand tools. Do some research before you post garbage like this.

      As far as EP's manufacturing process, once can only hope they followed the guidelines to avoid being illegal, if not those 5000 customers may have a problem.

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    3. 4 hours is only if your overly slow or unacquainted with your machinery.

      it can be done in under an hour if you know what you are doing there are over 50 videos i have seen of this lower being produced with out any cuts in rolling footage (because they don't know how to edit anything apparently) and non of them is a 4 hour long video. yes 15 seconds would be if you had some sort of automated processing machine and a jig to hold it in place for the machine to get at it just right. now 15 min well he said he was a machinist/gunsmith could be possible. and as far as water soliable its possible. they dont make biodegradeable plastics now. however if you wanted to do this one quickly you just hsove a saw's all down each of the long sides and then set a few 1 inch screws 1/2 inch into the white part and pull it out via tieing the screws off. the white part is not soild to keep it from being pulled out the main materal goes through it at diffrent points from 1/8th an inch under the serface untell 1/8th or so of an inch from where you would have to stop milling/drilling. this keeps the plastic you need to remove fromb eing pulled out with out tooling and keeps it from being classified as a compleated gun with something put in it to block the useage. even with out the white or in some cases of lighter colored materials black unneeded material, you still would have to mill out the excess base material which is not solidly blocking the trigger/action well but blocking it enough to make assembly into a gun impossible. and only after removing all of that could you then drill the trigger hole (with out destroying the trigger guard) and have your trigger poke out to be pulled and activate the hammer. oh and you have to drill the selector, the trigger and seer pins.

      long story short i think they could prove that their 80's were infact not a firearm that was reverted to 80% as the base materal if by its self in its forged state, couldnt be used with out modifying to make a gun. the onlything the secondary material did was make it so you could see where you needed to remove materal makeing it easyer for joe blow to use a drimmel or table top drill presss and compleate the process.

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    4. You sir, are a moron! Do your research first before spouting off. Obviously the only machine gun you have ever manufactured has been in your mind or on your X-box game. Go back to Call of Duty and let the grownups discuss.

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    5. I definitely lost some brain cells from reading that nonsense.

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    6. I'm not a liscenced anything, but I happen to have the white shavings of an ep lower right in front of me. They've been soakin for an hour now, and as far as I can tell they're not even remotely water soluble. They behave and melt pretty much like every other soft polyethylene. You sir, are full of shit.

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    7. your common Joe out here does not have any "automated processing machine and a jig to hold it in place for the machine to get at it just right. now 15 min well he said he was a machinist/gunsmith could be possible." not like you have at the ATF! We the American people are tired of these alphabet agencies doing what they want without having to answer to their crimes. they are all criminals and should be punished ... starting at the top!! After "fast and furious" was exposed many should have been tried and sentenced to prison. But what happened? not a damn thing. people wake up!! start with calling you congressmen ... if that doesn't work start getting groups together to go out, door to door, to sign petitions. We have to keep it legal. the government wants us to get violent so they can invoke martial law. hopefully it will never come to that. So people demand impeachment and demand resignations from politicians that are just along for the ride.

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  10. Wrong on so many levels, the ep lowers are first off not made on a rapid prototype machine, they are injection moulded, first the inside piece is molded, then placed in a second mold and the rest of the lower is formed around the inner piece. You cannot remove the inner piece without either machinigh it out or breaking the lower. During the second moulding the heat from the plastic actually bonds a little bit to the original inside piece, there are also ribs between the 2 different colors that hold the inside piece in place. And even after all of that, there is a considerable amount of hand fitting to even get the fcg into the pocket.

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  11. This isn't about 80% lowers.its about a government agency unilaterally deciding what the law is at their pleasure without due process and just stormtrooping to accert their. That they have power over us.did they really think one of ares's sales people were going to whip out a 80% and start shooting when they stormed in guns drawn lock and loaded. Don't be nieve.someone wants to send us a message.

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  12. For the record,Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly

    Scroll down, make sure to read it all. You can make guns and later sell them but you may not make them for sale.

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  13. Wow! On the one hand all the anti polymer lower people claim the polymer material is so fragile it will shatter with a hard look, then turn around and talk about driving in screws and snatching the filler block out despite the completely interlocked system that would certainly result in major structural damage, just grabbing it with a pair of pliers and snatching it out after "melting" it down with some water...CLEARLY this is part and parcel of the confusion on the BATF side of the table as well!
    First, anyone with eyes who has ever handled an EP80 can SEE the flashing of the exterior housing overlays the interior plug...it could not be so if the outer housing was molded first. Second, both parts are connect VERY firmly but thick ribs that prevent one being easily separated from the other. Second, even once ALL the plug material is removed the interior pocket is UNDERSIZE and must be enlarged in some sort of sane and controlled manner by someone with some degree of skill above monkey-fist, in order to fit the parts. The trigger slot must be drilled and enlarged "by eye" basically. In some ways an EP80 is more likely to be completely screwed up by some ham-fisted sausage-brain who approached it THINKING it was "easy."
    The ATF had several YEARS to shut down EP Armory so why wait so long? Also, contrary to foolishness being spouted, once the interior material has been removed all "evidence" as were as to which came first, the exterior or interior is GONE! How can the ATF retroactively prove any completed lower was manufactured improperly? It's one thing to raid a business and confiscate their inventory, it's quite another to start attempting to seize lawfully owned private property the ATF cannot prove was ever a firearm before it became a firearm. It's also one thing to carry out a high profile "raid" and quite another to canvass the entire country and not everyone is going to just hand over their legally purchased and manufactured lower...and more power to those who won't "comply" and force the ATF to prove their case in a court of evidence. This will make it equally difficult to obtain search warrants for private homes...literally YEARS after a mail-order sale...
    But more importantly is how many SUPPOSED supporters of the 2A are only too eager to jump on the anti EP80, anit Areas Armor bandwagon and propagate the most outrageous DISinformation about the product! Readers of some of these posts are left to wonder if the owners of EP Armory and Areas Armor were out $cr3w1n@ these guys wives and daughters in order to create such vitriol and hatred when ALL gun owners should be standing united!
    It is evident that very few posters on this and many other sites and forums have any direct experience with EP80 lowers...you people ought to be ashamed of yourselves for spouting such nonsense. Unless you're really anti-gun, anti-2A, pro-ATF shills...cause that's what you "read" like....

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  14. There is a processing reason for the separate plug in the fire control well. When injection molded plastic solidifies and cools in the mold, it shrinks. If you look closely at some injection molded parts you will see some surface depressions on in regions where the thickness is much larger than in surrounding areas.

    An AR 15 lower with a solid fire control well molded in "one shot" one would exhibit massive voids and depressions due to the large mass of plastic in that area. A pre-made plug inserted in the mold before injecting molding the rest of the lower solves that problem nicely while giving the customer the impression that it would be easier to mill that area out.

    IF the ATF wanted to find out how the lowers were manufactured, a formal inquiry or sample purchased from EP and a little bit of engineering knowledge would have answered that question without the need for a raid. There is little reason to interpret the raid as anything other than an act of intimidation towards manufacturers and customers of certain non-firearm components (aka 80% receivers).

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    1. the whole disturbing event begs the question: what about 80% Ak-74 and 47 receivers?

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  15. I bought an ep lower and did it up. Those markings were to drill are not 100% spot on. And the plug was definitely there first before the mold. U can see were the mold mixes with the plug. It took me 3 hrs of milling sanding and fixing little things to even make it work properly. In my eyes they should be going after the jigs made since they fit all 80s and are dead on. And honestly after putting the rifle together and this is my first ar, they should be more worried about people making them full auto. All it would take is 15min with a dremel to the saftey selector lol the government is a joke. Locks only keep honest people out and I think we can apply that to guns also. There's a thin line between practical and rediculous and they always seem to cross to the rediculous side. Its a shame.

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  16. I just found out about this by accident it's not like I hunt for news about places I bought from weeks ago, why didn't EP bother to notify their customers, is it because they don't have the information anymore as it is in the hands of the ATF? I needed to know this before now, since last week I just sent an application to the ATF for a C&R FFL, they may just reject my application for being in possession of these lowers and hold prejudgedice for any future applications for an FFL, thanks EP for the heads up*sarcasm. I'm trying to work within the system and then the ATF pulls some shit like this to fuck up everyones day.

    I'm just trying to get my firearms without the hassle of going through a dealer and paying extra fees and/or taxes. I don't want to go through someone else and pay for the privilege of an unnecessary background check and/or other fees, I'm legal to buy firearms why else would I apply for a C&R FFL, it's all about saving time and money I shouldn't have to expend, not about trying to get away with something.

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